I work in a busy, medium sized emergency department. Because we’re busy, and because of the ridiculous burden imposed by EMTALA, lots of consultants don’t really want to come to the emergency department.
Can’t say I blame them, really. It’s often a thankless job, thanks in no small part to our legislators who made sure everyone has access to health-care, but conveniently forgot to pay the people who are doing the hard work and actually seeing the sick, dying, wounded, drunk, angry and annoying.
If I were in another specialty, I’d honestly consider going off the call schedule, opening a surgery center or any of the other options docs do to avoid hospital affiliation and EMTALA-mandated work.
However, we’re still stuck with the problem until we all unite together and insist on it being changed. For now, people still come to the hospital and need care, need studies, need specialists. For now, I have to sort through it all.
Which brings me to the point of this post. A few nights ago I cared for a small child with abdominal pain and fever that began about 12 hours prior to arrival. He had no vomiting or diarrhea, no cold symptoms, no urinary symptoms. His knees were drawn up, and he was lying on his right side. He was quite tender to exam, and showed guarding. One year ago, he had an appendectomy. One less thing to worry about.
His CT abdomen and pelvis, with contrast, was essentially negative. His CBC, urine and electrolytes were normal. I called the on-call surgeon and described the child and studies. He told me that it sounded viral. I admit, I hadn’t re-examined the child at that point. I asked, and probably with the wrong tone, ‘So are you telling me that nothing bad can be wrong with this child?’ My surgeon friend became annoyed with me (not with the patient), and came to the department to do an evaluation.
What followed was a back-hall argument that turned out to be a little too loud. I felt badly and apologized, and so did he. But I tried to point out that in the emergency department, we are often faced with a conundrum:
Sick patient, worrisome exam, negative studies.
So, what do we do? Now, I’m throwing this out to everyone, ER doc, FP, Internist, Hospitalist, Surgeon and all. I’m not being sarcastic; I want to know. Have we reached a place in medicine where the science of labs and imagining is sufficient to rule out dangerous etiologies without exam? Have we reached a place where history and physical exam are simply vestiges of the old days of medicine?
I’m not a researcher, but many of you are. Please give me your thoughts on this. I don’t want to argue with anyone, and I don’t want to miss a diagnosis. I also don’t want to cause already over-burdened specialists to have to come to the hospital when they needn’t. But sometimes, frankly, I want another pair of eyes, another set of hands, another brain admittedly sharper than my own, to help make a decision.
And I’m just not sure the scanner qualifies.
What do you think? If I’m all wet, if I need to quit my belly-aching and stop worrying, I need to know.
Let me have it! And please forward this to other docs in other specialties as well. Because it applies to cardiology, ENT, pediatrics, anyone who relies on any kind of lab-work or imaging.
I don’t think CT is the end all and be all, especially with kids and older folks, whose bodies tend not to have read the textbooks, and when not every radiologic test is perfect. A re-exam would have been helpful for you, as you suggest, but in the end we also have to go with our instincts. In this particular case, sometimes continued observation or even admission for observation and serial labs will go a long way toward deciding the right course of action. Because one important element of the diagnosis is time, and the evolution of symptoms over that… Read more »
mamadoc
16 years ago
I’m an FP, not a pediatrician or surgeon, but I think this would be a place for admission for observation and repeat labs as outlined above. Unless the parents are gold-plated reliable and you believe they’ll followup with their ususal doctor the next day (admittedly, a rare situation). If he’s better the next day, no harm no foul. If not, aren’t you glad you took your impression seriously? Sometimes you need to treat the patient, not the laboratory. And no, I don’t think you can call it viral without an exam.
I also struggle with knowing when to refer or consult and when not to. I’m not sure if anyone has studied this yet or not, but we should probably have a certain percentage of false-positive referrals to make sure we’re not missing an unacceptably high number of serious diagnoses.
I would second TBTAM’s reply.
Aaron
16 years ago
I think this highlights a serious flaw in the specialty of EM as practiced in small and medium sized hospitals (especially single-coverage). In order to insert ourselves into the house of medicine over the years we told the surgeon – Hey, just let me be a specialty and we’ll see all of your post op complications, all of your acute presentations, and assume all of the risk of their dispositions. We won’t even bother you unless we’re really in a bind, and then over the phone we’ll allow you to try to talk us out of our own exam. Heck,… Read more »
As a consultant I look at it this way. If I’m on call and the ER doc wants me to evaluate a patient I come and do it. But as a surgeon I have to say that my general rule of thumb is the 80:20 rule. If there’s an 80% chance that I’ll need to operate on the patient before discharge then I’ll admit the patient. If I think that it’s only 20% then you’ll need to involve someone else. However, what I really tire of is the triage doc mentality of some of the ER docs. Sometimes they seem… Read more »
Or the other variations: Pt looks great, labs look terrible. Imaging looks terrible, pt looks great.
In these cases we usually admit the pt for 24 to 48 hrs of observation. Most of the time we don’t actually do anything but repeat labs and watch closely.
As a patient who tries to stay away from the ED, I find your perspective refreshing. I try to stay away because I try to circumvent emergencies, not for any negative reason. However, recently I had no choice but to go to the ED with very severe abdominal, back, and flank pain. It was late, my PCP wasn’t in, and no urgent care centers were open. When I arrived there, a gentleman kindly parked my car after helping me into the ED, and I was immediately taken into triage. I found myself in a “room” with one of the lovely… Read more »
jb
16 years ago
I’m a surgeon. I get along extremely well with ER colleagues, because I don’t give them a hard time when they call me. If it’s an inconvenient time, they are generally apologetic to bother me, even if it’s a clear cut surgical problem. They know that if it’s a surgical problem, or has a high likelihood of same, I’ll come and admit the patient. In this setting, however, I would balk at admitting. Normal labs, normal CT, history of appendectomy makes likelihood of acute surgical disease very small. Depending on the setting, it could be viral, inflammatory (too young for… Read more »
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I don’t think CT is the end all and be all, especially with kids and older folks, whose bodies tend not to have read the textbooks, and when not every radiologic test is perfect. A re-exam would have been helpful for you, as you suggest, but in the end we also have to go with our instincts. In this particular case, sometimes continued observation or even admission for observation and serial labs will go a long way toward deciding the right course of action. Because one important element of the diagnosis is time, and the evolution of symptoms over that… Read more »
I’m an FP, not a pediatrician or surgeon, but I think this would be a place for admission for observation and repeat labs as outlined above. Unless the parents are gold-plated reliable and you believe they’ll followup with their ususal doctor the next day (admittedly, a rare situation). If he’s better the next day, no harm no foul. If not, aren’t you glad you took your impression seriously? Sometimes you need to treat the patient, not the laboratory. And no, I don’t think you can call it viral without an exam.
I also struggle with knowing when to refer or consult and when not to. I’m not sure if anyone has studied this yet or not, but we should probably have a certain percentage of false-positive referrals to make sure we’re not missing an unacceptably high number of serious diagnoses.
I would second TBTAM’s reply.
I think this highlights a serious flaw in the specialty of EM as practiced in small and medium sized hospitals (especially single-coverage). In order to insert ourselves into the house of medicine over the years we told the surgeon – Hey, just let me be a specialty and we’ll see all of your post op complications, all of your acute presentations, and assume all of the risk of their dispositions. We won’t even bother you unless we’re really in a bind, and then over the phone we’ll allow you to try to talk us out of our own exam. Heck,… Read more »
As a consultant I look at it this way. If I’m on call and the ER doc wants me to evaluate a patient I come and do it. But as a surgeon I have to say that my general rule of thumb is the 80:20 rule. If there’s an 80% chance that I’ll need to operate on the patient before discharge then I’ll admit the patient. If I think that it’s only 20% then you’ll need to involve someone else. However, what I really tire of is the triage doc mentality of some of the ER docs. Sometimes they seem… Read more »
Patient looks sick, labs look OK, radiology non-diagnostic.
Or the other variations: Pt looks great, labs look terrible. Imaging looks terrible, pt looks great.
In these cases we usually admit the pt for 24 to 48 hrs of observation. Most of the time we don’t actually do anything but repeat labs and watch closely.
But every once in a while we find something.
System works well in our community.
As a patient who tries to stay away from the ED, I find your perspective refreshing. I try to stay away because I try to circumvent emergencies, not for any negative reason. However, recently I had no choice but to go to the ED with very severe abdominal, back, and flank pain. It was late, my PCP wasn’t in, and no urgent care centers were open. When I arrived there, a gentleman kindly parked my car after helping me into the ED, and I was immediately taken into triage. I found myself in a “room” with one of the lovely… Read more »
I’m a surgeon. I get along extremely well with ER colleagues, because I don’t give them a hard time when they call me. If it’s an inconvenient time, they are generally apologetic to bother me, even if it’s a clear cut surgical problem. They know that if it’s a surgical problem, or has a high likelihood of same, I’ll come and admit the patient. In this setting, however, I would balk at admitting. Normal labs, normal CT, history of appendectomy makes likelihood of acute surgical disease very small. Depending on the setting, it could be viral, inflammatory (too young for… Read more »
Please keep these excellent posts coming.